More Than A Survivor: Rape, Activism and what comes next with Sarah Super

In 2015, Sarah Super was raped by her ex-boyfriend Alex Neal. And she channeled that act of violence into a mission-driven organization that helped survivors of sexual violence feel seen and heard. 9 years after the night that changed her life, Sarah reflects on what it means to move forward with her life and to reclaim her identity as more than a survivor. Sarah was a guest on the first season of our podcast.

Transcript:

Sarah: It's almost like that Pandora's box of, like, are we sure we wanna go there, Nora? Like, are we sure we wanna open that door in the back of my brain, like, past the Dust and the cobwebs and just, like, are we are we actually gonna, you know, hit that Willy Wonka red button and, like, blast into that space. 

If you’ve been listening to the show since the beginning, you might recognize that voice from our seventh episode, Unbroken. 

That voice belongs to Sarah Super, a rape survivor who lived through many people’s worst nightmare. In February 2015, Sarah was moving on from a breakup with her ex-boyfriend Alec Neal. She and her mother had gone to Mexico for a girl’s trip, and Sarah returned to her St. Paul, Minnesota apartment feeling refreshed and peaceful. She didn’t know that Alec Neal had been hiding in her closet, waiting for her to return. That he had a knife and a sheet. That after she unpacked and got ready for bed, he would rape her, cut her, that she would escape with her life. That he would flee.

That she would find herself in a legal system that shames and silences victims, and that she would be the one to break that silence, and make the space for That she would become a voice for survivors of sexual violence.

In 2015, Sarah was profiled in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which is where I first heard her story. I still remember putting down the actual newspaper and rushing to find a way to contact her and let her know what her story meant to me. And I wasn’t the only one.

Sarah:  A bunch of survivors reached out. The stories that struck me the most were the people I grew up with, went to college with… to reconnect with them after so many years over this experience of violence we shared…it was those people…this is happening to so many of us…and it made me feel grateful to have spoken out. 

But there’s also been so many experiences…so many people are learning about sexual violence and how to respond to survivors at my expense.

When I broke the silence there was illusion I was being supported. I wanted to carry on. Even though I didn’t know what support looked like there are not enough kale salads and bubble bath to anyone heal sexual assault. There is a huge myth that self-care heals trauma. Total denial of what sexual assault is and how traumatic experiences happen. Sexual violence happens in context of relationship. Strangers, family, school, student, whoever… happens between people as human beings. And so to say to person you can heal in isolation is to actually negate that damage was done between people… and what you really need is for people to rebuild your sense of trust, world is good, you are deserving of being loved.

 I ended up running into people 6 months later they have to bring up why they haven’t said anything. I’ve been following your story and... If you knew me…and are following this…are you just following this out of drama?

Why don’t people say anything?

People don’t know what to say. I want survivors to get the right reaction. I have taken it on myself to teach people that it’s important to say something because your silence feels like apathy… and it’s the same apathy I felt from my perpetrator when he assaulted me. So it’s a powerful feeling.

When she says she took it upon herself to teach people, she really took it upon herself. Sarah created an organization called Break The SIlence, which held events where other survivors could come and break their own silence about what they’d survived. 

These were calm, holy, and heartbreakingly FULL spaces where anyone could stand up and tell their story, no matter where or when or how it happened, and be met with ears and hearts that were truly listening. With eyes that didn’t look away, even when they were filled and overflowing with tears.

Where survivors’ stories were not meant with silence, but with the same sentences, over and over:

You are strong. You are courageous. You are inspiring. I believe you. I stand with you. 

And I watched for years as Sarah showed up for survivors in this way and in many others, from protests in the freezing [00:05:00] cold to media appearances to building America’s first ever permanent memorial to survivors of sexual assault. A literal monument in Minneapolis.

NEWS CLIP

She didn’t just break the silence, she made sure to keep making noise. Because Alec Neal was convicted and sentenced to 12 years in prison…but someday, he’d get out. And when we first spoke in 2016, this was a very big, very real fear.

Sarah: I fear the day he gets out. Because it wasn’t just rape. That night was going to keep going and I escaped whatever else he had planned…but there are signs. The Duct tape he filled his car with and left in my closet. The notes that he wrote. One saying “I’m going to gut you from head to toe.”

Nora: He left notes?

Sarah: Yeah. In closet he was hiding in. Face mask and gloves, bed sheets, I asked police “what are bedsheets for?” Thinking he would have raped me on his own clean bedsheets… their response was “usually to carry a body.” 

When we spoke in 2016, Sarah told us that Alec would have to serve ⅔ of that 12 year sentence, which put his release date somewhere around…2023. In 2016, that felt like…kind of a long way off. But in the summer of 2023, when I ran into Sarah at a Human Resources conference, the date had come and gone. Alec was free. And Sarah was…at a human resources conference in a branded polo shirt. Totally out of context for how I and many other people knew her: as synonymous with her rape. And with the work of supporting surivors of sexual violence with her organization, break the silence. 

I was out of context, too. I was a speaker for the event wandering around an expo floor and we both glitched a little. What are you doing here? What are you doing here? And how have you been? 

 And Sarah told me that she had been good. That Alec had gotten out of prison. And that she'd stepped away from Break The Silence, the organization that she'd founded and dedicated her time to since 2015.

Sarah: It was entirely a job, but also not a job. It was unpaid. It was volunteer. It was self directed, totally self motivated.

I don't think there was any ever a person who would have said, like, oh, I'll do that, and I'll do it for free too. And so I could never, like, step aside, and I never felt like I was able to to opt out or necessarily to at some point, it became so significant and so public that I felt like it was hard to even slow the pace down or just to, like, hey, everybody. Sarah needs a break. You know? Like, I really wasn't able to do that.

And It also would go against,my inner instinct and drive to to actually slow down. But, see. The workload was it wasn't like a job description. It really was me interacting with the world and namely survivors of sexual violence who had never gotten the support they deserved see.

And actually feeling like, okay. I have time, privilege, money, energy, a personal story, a personal no connection to do something with that. I did a lot of things. I I was an event organizer. I was a volunteer manager and recruiter.

 I fundraised 700000 plus dollars to build a memorial to survivors of sexual violence that's now constructed in Minneapolis. I was a lobbyist at the Capitol as a volunteer for 5 years trying to, you know, pass a law in Minnesota, which got passed in 20 21. I organized a choir for a few years of my life that I [00:09:00] felt like, would be healing for survivors to just be able to sing. I was an activist that I organized protests and public demonstrations. And then also just, an educator, and I wanted to have a social media presence that I thought gave people the information they needed to support survivors in their life, 

Alongside all of these accomplishments, Sarah also had a paying job -- a career as a training consultant. So she'd work during the day for her job... and at night and on weekends at her calling. 

Sarah: I'm actually proud. I really feel like it was truly, see, like, movement oriented.

it wasn't like, oh, we're a nonprofit, and we're gonna set our strategic plan for the next 3 years, and here's what we're gonna cute. Um, it was like, oh my god. This story in the newspaper just hit, and now we're gonna do this. You know, hashtag me too went viral. And the next day, we had a launch petition to eliminate the criminal statute of, limitations to reporting sexually violent crimes in Minnesota.

And so It was that fluidity that I think allowed us to get so much done, but also another way of seeing that is saying, like, oh, There really weren't boundaries here. 

Nora: of that all of those things that you listed, they are so impressive. They are so many things to be proud of. They're also such big things to do on top of having a job that pays you, being someone's daughter, someone's friend, uh, being a person in the world and also working through your own traumatic experience.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I was even, as As I was thinking about talking to you today, I was thinking about how it's actually easy. I would almost find it easier to rerecord that first episode where I'm it's easier for me to tell my rape story than it is to talk about break the silence.

Sarah: Like, it's easier to tell people what happened to me on that personal level where I feel a sense of solidarity and connection. It's harder for me to talk about break the silence where I felt really alone. there are so many people who know the wounds of rape and sexual violence. There are very few people who know 

What it's like to go through the court process. people deserve a level of accountability they don't receive. But, talking to people about, like, what is it like to write a victim impact statement it is 1 example of, like, I'm privileged to get to that to have that experience, but I'm also It it's isolating. And I would say that is true tenfold around leading an organization based out of a personal traumatic experience that's also deeply connected to all of this pain and trauma.

And so I just I don't know. I think It was really hard for me to do the work based out of my own trauma and being in in a spotlight in a way. 

Nora: You mentioned it's easier to tell the story of your rape than it is to tell the story of, you know, break the silence, your organization. 

What is that? 

Sarah: See. I think for me, there's just so many more expectations of, like, how does 1 lead a nonprofit or how does 1 do professional work.

And I don't have those expectations tied to healing and surviving. I really see there's so many different paths of how to heal and how to move forward. And so there's a gentle part of me that says, You know, you're still here. And and that's that's powerful. That's a resistance.

That's a perseverance that takes strength. The part of me that looks back and sees the professional work is the critic that says you should have been more timely in that. You should have been more on top of this. You should have been thanking people or managing, those donations differently or it's literally the critic of how do you How do you judge someone's work rather than how do you judge just living a life with with gentleness? 

Nora: It's not as though you started out and said, how can I make this see? A big and all consuming organization for me personally.

Sarah: I honestly thinking back to it, I You know, I was 26 when I was raped. And when I was 25, I felt, like, old in a weird way and which is hilarious 10 years ago.

But I remember that the time between college and that moment before I was assaulted was It felt long and strenuous for, like, really a sense of, like, crossing a threshold or, my soul's threshing of of really thinking What am I gonna do with this liberal arts degree? And I had attempted 3 master's programs, and I only finished 1 of them. I would I would literally any any master's program that didn't require a GRE, I was, You know, applying to. Just no standardized testing for me.

And I learned something in every piece of it. And I I chose to drop out when it didn't feel like it was the right fit anymore. But by the time I finished my master's in human resource development, I landed, a dream job at Hennepin county. I was doing internal, training, learning, and development work there. And within 4 months of getting the job, I was raped.

And it's just 1 of those moments where you see yet another person often most often a woman, have their career kind of derailed by [00:15:00] these experiences that happen in private spaces. I really feel like my experience of sexual violence was a professional derailment from the life that I was, like, setting out to lead. And so all of that work that came from it really wasn't it wasn't I was already satisfied professionally.

It wasn't about becoming the finding meaning and purpose. I had meaning and purpose in my work. I was more responding to the thing that I heard That was surrounding me that others weren't hearing and weren't noticing.

Nora: this was an interruption to your life that then became a huge part of your life, like became your life in a lot of ways. 

Sarah: Yes. And actually that is the part where it's like, it became that that is such an unsustainable thing. 

Like, it was 1 of those moments where I'm like, okay, I'm really doing this work around, you know, supporting sexual assault survivors. Why wouldn't I wanna get paid for it full time? See. And so I ended up working in this field as, like, working for the nonprofits that already existed and also running my own stuff see on nights and weekends. so it truly became everything I was and did.

or rather, like, what I did is also who I was. 

And it it damaged me.

Nora: Tell me about that. See.

Sarah: I really suffered significantly and frequently from migraines, which had never impacted me. So there was literally a physical, like, barrier to often doing the work where my body wasn't allowing me to just look at a computer or look at my phone.the week after so the memorial was built we had a a dedication ceremony that happened virtually because it happened in the fall of 20 20 in the midst of the pandemic. And A week after the dedication ceremony, [00:17:00] when everything felt like, you know, the publicity was kind of done if it you know, it's just minimal, but it was done. And it felt like, okay, this project is, over in a significant way.

I developed, a heart problem. I started having this, like, irregular heartbeat, and I found myself in, a cardiologist office doing a stress test and wearing 1 of those, heart monitors for a few days. And, it just was almost like my body was pushing through, pushing through, pushing through. And then, again, what I know so many people experience when it's the time to rest or the time of relief, your body's like, woah. See.

What what have you been doing? You know? So I just like a very physical level. There was a lot of physical pain. but emotionally, it just I felt so vulnerable and so unprotected.

There were so many people who supported me and loved me through this. But it doesn't stop, like, the wrath of social media, you know? And I didn't have, like, a staff person being, like, um, this next email might be hard for you to read.

Like, no 1 Softened anything for me. I just felt like any mistakes that were made would still be a reflection of me. Any inadequacies.

And it took a long time to feel like myself actually again. 

Nora: There's no training program that tells you when you open yourself up or are sort of exposed to this much of the world. Yep. Um, voluntarily or not, um, how to handle it. Yeah.

Mentally, we handle it physically. And I'm sure you've experienced that. I mean, just the sense that You're doing something well and it snowballs [00:19:00] and how to how to be seen by so many people, how to be in relationship to, like, an abnormally large number. Yeah. It's not normal.

Sarah: There is no training program. It's not normal. It's not a very human experience. See. No.

No. It's not like it's not a very healthy human experience either. Yes. Like, you're not I don't know a person who's, like, very well equipped Yeah. For that.

Nora: Right. And I think you you said it, like, takes it took a long time to feel like yourself.

Who did you feel like? 

Sarah: I Honestly, I think of, like, a, like, a LinkedIn headline, like, Sarah Super rape survivor. You know?

I'm a person who's compelled to do good in the world. Mhmm. But I also feel like I was doing good in the world. by being a human being in relationship to others who has And emotional bandwidth to show up for friends and [00:20:00] family and colleagues to to participate in, public discourse and read the newspaper without feeling like if I do or if I turn on the news, it's not gonna enable me to, do my work that day, Because so there's just it's a tipping point of emotional exhaustion.

I think I just had this, like, different distorted sense of, like, what is a what is a life? You know, what is a contribution? 

Nora: I hear often, and I bet you do too, I hear from people who've been through something similar to what I've been through who say, now I wanna make something. Now I need to do something. I need to do something with this experience, and I need turn it into something else. And every time a person approaches me with that conviction, with that, you know, surviving was enough. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, the desire to make something, see. I think is really profound and can be a really great source of healing. I think the if I could give some advice, I guess I would say don't see. Don't necessarily make something that you can measure. Right?

Sarah: Like, make a connection. See. And I think that's probably the most life giving part of this story for me has been the people that I've now connected to and that I resonate with and who are able to see. Kind of hold the suffering when that shows up for me in a way that feels supportive. Um, those connections I think are the things I'm most Proudest of making are tehe connections

Nora: you know, it's it's an honor to receive somebody's story, to be a safe place for somebody's story. Yeah. And it can also be a really retraumatizing experience. how did you take care of yourself and your healing while also, stepping into a pool of trauma every day.

Sarah: I guess, 2 things. 1 is when someone felt like they desperately needed me, and I couldn't offer that. So that was really painful where they're like, Sarah, I need to meet with you. I need to talk to you.

I'm like, I can't manage that right now. so that was really heavy for me and also, Critique, you know, or just saying, like, I don't like this or I think you're doing this wrong. And just having that come from lots of different angles, you know, obviously unsolicited by a lot of people sometimes. I don't even know in spaces that I don't even see. Participate in necessarily.

Um, those are really hard. And, you know, survivors feel very differently. Our experiences are different. Our needs are different. And so the idea that I could be everything for everyone is clearly impossible.

Uh, but the the expectation that I set for myself of, like, oh, I don't wanna cause anyone pain, and I want everyone to feel included and invited into this then that everyone can feel supported. And, I still kind of feel that way. And it's it's hard for me just to be like, no. I'm just gonna, you know, The people who don't like my work can just, you know, ignore it. but it's really painful.

And I still and And I think so much of it, the critique is also from there's still such there's still so many gaps, And there's still so much work to do specifically on this issue that I see that isn't being done or isn't being fulfilled. So so their anger and their frustration is really is righteous and valid. It's just, I wasn't able to hold that. 

Nora: To hold that and also to see.Respond to a need that is bottomless and an experience that is kaleidoscopic in a way that reflects back the experience of every person who is coming into contact with this work. And I can kind of feel the weight of that even just having you talk about it 2, which is, like, you are this person who has that deep need to do good in the world, To make those connections. And when you do things out of that that really genuine desire and can't make every single person happy. Like, that's really difficult.

That is a very hard thing. and I think it would be hard if you were getting paid to do it, but I think it's even harder when it's, a labor of love and responsibility. I always got a sense that you felt like responsible to other survivors. Yeah.

Sarah: And I think I feel responsible because I think see. What Break the Silence did felt so unique. And so it felt like a place where survivors could reach you out. And it wasn't it wasn't a victim advocate, um, agency. Right?

Like, it wasn't a a place with a crisis line. We weren't offering to go trying to go with people to get, like, an order for protection or restraining order. Uh, we didn't have, like, support group meetings. We were doing this really kind of flexible thing. And, yeah, it just it was It's obviously way beyond me.

but there really wasn't another organization or infrastructure that I've seen that's just done it and fulfill that need for survivors who aren't necessarily in crisis, but are you know, it's It's a really painful journey. And I think if you asked the regular person, how does someone heal from rape? They'd still say a really good therapist and a lot of self care, which I think is just a It's guided notion of what it actually means to, to take a stand. And this is, um, Very much a cultural and political issue, that's perpetuated by a lack of, you know, justice and accountability and healing and nuance Understanding of trauma. So there's there's plenty of work to do.

Nora: When people say, oh, it's a therapist in self care, what do you want to tell them? What is it really? See. I think it's every interaction.

Sarah: I think, you know, sometimes see. People use that that, age old adage, time heals. And That's just not at all true with trauma. In fact, the nature of trauma is a timelessness, is a distorted sense of then and now. And and while it's not the passage of time that I think heals because healing isn't linear.

I do think time allows for a survivor to have more and more interactions with other people, other responders, for other people to to either be part of the healing or part of the harm. And I'm I'm hoping that we're moving towards a world where the longer the more time that passes, the more healing, um, interactions people have, Which means more healing overall. But I really think it takes friends and family and communities to show that they care, to take take this pain seriously to validate the harm that's been [00:29:00] done. I think there's a need to, you know, transform our justice system so that perpetrators can take accountability without having their human rights denied. Um, there's so many ways in which We've just gotten it wrong.

And and such a lack of when you compare what victims need to what they get or what are their options, in. It's just it's just painful. So I guess what I would say I mean, that's a very long winded answer, but,when we say there a lot of therapy and a lot of self care, what I hear is you take care of yourself or Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's kind of You got this. Mentality.

Nora: You got this. And, actually, by by passing the responsibility onto you, the victim, see. I, as a community member, get to wash my hands of any responsibility of of stepping up and being part of the solution. It's obviously so much easier to be a bystander. And, you know, that's how oppression and and violence thrives is when people just sit back and don't think it's, it's their place.

Sarah: Yeah. That's for other people. Right. That's someone else's job. You got this.

Nora: You got this. You said something that I just pictured it's such a perfect summary of your identity being almost flattened into a LinkedIn see. Sarah Super, rape survivor. And I see.

Hate that for you. And I also have to admit that that work and that title and headline, it converged even for me, even for a person who knows you in real life. Thank you. And, you know, I'm like, I actually yeah. I guess I see.

Didn't know what you actually did for work. Right. See. Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, like, to dance.what is the process or is there an inflection point where you're like, I have to step away from this? Mhmm. How did you make the decision to step away from that work? And when did that happen?

Sarah: to some degree, I would say I didn't step away until I felt like things were done, or there there was some level of completion that the the statute of limitations bill that passed in Minnesota had taken 5 years or 5 legislative sessions to lobby The memorial to survivors of sexual violence took, you know, 5 and a half years to work with local government and fundraise, um, and construct and see that through. And so it wasn't until I felt those things [00:32:00] were complete that I felt like I was able to step aside and step away.

Nora: And how does that feel. Mhmm.

Sarah: Originally, it felt very strange. Um, like that reflex of, like, something's happening on Facebook or Instagram, and I'm clueless to it, but it's a crisis. And I need to find out what it is. Or, like, there's an emergency. See.

Something's burning on my phone, and, um, I'm just not I'm just ignoring yet. And actually, it was like, no. Actually, it's okay. You know? Not to say that there was an emergency.

It was that moment quiet of like, we passed that bill or we built that memorial. And, And that you kind of that I had this ability to to actually step away. See. So I guess originally, there felt like this strange quiet And also that strange reflex of, like, something's happening and I'm missing it. Then there was kind of an identity crisis of, like, oh, I I mean, I felt in many ways proud of things I had accomplished, but in a very stereotypical sense of, like, a Career trajectory that I had been fed, you know, the first 18 years of my life.

This these accomplishments didn't add up to anything. You know, it was nothing changed for me. No 1 called me up and said, hey. I saw what you did in Minneapolis. I wanna hire you for this exciting new job in New York City or something.

Like, no 1 did that. And, um, and that was okay. But it really was see. It was a sense of, like, has this work been fully [00:34:00] seen, or what can I offer? I have all these skills and contacts and literally just, like, energy, enthusiasm.

Where do I put it? And and frankly, I have been questioning that. I think that's kind of still a a question that that lingers and comes up, um, quite frequently. But I think there's a few different places where after taking a few years of what I deem as a break, I would say there are places where I'm noticing I'm I'm being drawn into and, um, and it feels right to to meet. And it doesn't actually, it doesn't center around being a rape survivor or talking about sexual violence.

I think the grief for me, 1 of the sad parts for for me was the feeling that that by me stepping aside, there wasn't someone, like, taking the reins or that because this wasn't I had never made it into a paid position that it wasn't something that I'd wish for someone else to do for free. And and so in a way, by me stepping aside, I was stopping a lot of the work for what was happening. and I'm not trying to take too much credit, but I just by creating an unsustainable place. By creating something unsustainable for even myself, it didn't allow or invite anyone else to take it on, and nor would I want them to have taken it on in the same way. Yeah.

Nora: What has it been like To figure out who you are now. 

Sarah: See. I'm still figuring it out. Yeah.

I would say even, like, last year is the year I became a woman. Like, a lot of senses are just, like, owning more of who I am and making big choices for myself. Um, I feel like I'm getting clearer. But I do feel like 1 thing I've settled on is life is a lot more than just what we contribute. And I do feel that contributing is very important.

Like, I wanna be, you know, constantly learning, constantly giving, but also happy and healthy. And I think there is a dissonance that sometimes shows up between the desire to improve the world and the desire to enjoy the world. And More often, I think I tend towards improving it and at the expense of enjoying it. And I see. And maybe the balance isn't that every everything sits at that standstill equilibrium, but that it actually kind of ebbs and flows.

And There was a part of my life leading Break the Silence that was really dedicated to improving the world. And now I'm in more of a phase where I'm just enjoying the world. And maybe I'll, you know, swing back the other way in another time. But I'm I think I'm finding out what it is to to have a job that That feels balanced to me. I get to work with good people.

Um, I get to do volunteer work that brings me joy. I'm dancing. I do yoga. I teach yoga. You know?

So there's there's I'm becoming that multidimensional person that I was before I was assaulted. 

Nora: sometimes, like, the worst thing that happens to you becomes and needs to become, like, truly the headline in your life.

Sarah: Mhmm. It is the most important thing Yeah. That somebody can know about you at certain points in time, for a certain amount of time 

Nora: I have a friend, doctor Anna Roth, who's a psychologist who has told me numerous times, it's not the time, like you mentioned, you know, it's just not just time passes.

It's it's what you do with that time and what you do in that time. And eventually people treat you in that time. And how other people treat you, what happens in that time. And, um, eventually, for some people, like, what was the headline is like a footnote or Mhmm. You know, a page.

It's not like the it's not the name of the book anymore. Right. And it doesn't mean that, you know, it's not important. It just means that it's not everything. See.

Sarah: That's right. And I think too, um, at the dedication ceremony for the survivors memorial, Tarana Burke spoke. And 1 of the things she said was that you cannot tell the story of what happened to me without telling the story of my survival. And I think about that from just my sense of, like, I'm not Sara Super rape survivor. Where I'm Sarah Super rape survivor who did this, this, this, and now is doing this, this, and this, you know?

And that it's it's just it is a part of the story that I've integrated, but it's not the end of the story.

I so Yeah. You know, we're almost, like, we're almost exactly 9 years see from the night I was raped. But last February, I was preparing for the person who raped me to get out of prison. So it was very much A part of my consciousness, a part of my awareness of of not just what happened to me, but also the fear of what else could happen into me. And and honestly, that fear once again, like, confronting the fear of death or fronting our own mortality inspired a lot of action of just, like, this is short, and we don't know what's in front of us.

And there are things that I want out of life that I'm no longer willing to be so patient for. And it does. It sparks a lot of change. And in 1 of those things is, you know, just stepping away from 1 thing in order to experience another. Yeah.

Nora: And I think, like, see. It's important for people to be reminded that their lives, their value, their identity, their story in the world is more than just the worst thing that they've been through or the worst thing that's happened to them see. that you don't have to sort of lop off all of your branches, like the giving tree, and that you can be proud of what you've given and proud of what you've done and have that be enough, you know? Yeah. And you don't have to cut yourself down to the stump.

Sarah: See. Right? Like, maybe just the apples that come back every year is a beautiful gift. See. 

Yeah. Just the apples, just the even just the shade, you know? Yes. Yes.

Nora: Just the shade, just being there. Your existence is the gift in a lot of ways, you know? In a lot of ways. Yeah. That would've been a short book, But the boy sat in the shade and the boy was happy.

Sarah: And so was the tree. Okay? See and choose. Honestly, boundaries. Right?

Boundaries. Yeah. Boundaries. I'm sustainability. Sustainability.

Nora: I am really proud of you, Sarah, and I'm really happy For you, and I'm really excited about your life for you. Thank you. 

I'm Nora McInerny, this has been Terrible, Thanks for Asking, and if you feel like you are the giving tree, I hope you know that your existence is enough. That the shade is enough. That whatever you do, wherever you are right now, it's all enough.

Thank you Sarah Super for being a part of our very first season...and what is, for now, our very last. When I say we are taking an indefinite leave after April 2, 2024, I mean indefinite in the way dictionary.com defines it: without fixed or specific limit. Not clearly defined or determined. Not precise or exact. 

This is an independent podcast, produced by Feelings & Co., our team is myself, Marcel Malekebu, Claire McInerny, Grace Barry and Michelle Plantan. Our theme music is by Geoffrey Lamar Wilson. We have a daily show called It's Going To Be OK where you can get a 5-minute episode every weekday to start your day with the opposite of a doom scroll, and links to all the other places you can connect with me, or us, are in our show description.